Photo credit at michellekeirstead.files.wordpress.com
In my work as a chaplain and business owner, I am fascinated at the growing sharp distinction between the secular and religious mind. Christians are from Mars and agnostics, atheists and the distracted are from Venus. It is getting to where we are not even speaking the same language anymore. It seems like English, but it is not. We have morphed into our own local dialects.
Christians, what can we do? What is our responsibility here? There is a new generation of people who want to reshape our children. Agnostics, atheists and the distracted want to destroy the faith of our children. They want to rebuild society based on seemingly new ideas.
We should not be scared; the Gospel remains Good News. Let’s look at one of the many promises Jesus gave His followers. Jesus told Peter, “The gates of Hell will not stand against my church (Matthew 16:18).” It is important to understand that we are to love the people who want to reshape our children and our children’s faith; God loves them too. They do not realize what they are doing. One day they will, but as for now, they do not. One important point to understand: the very gates of hell can’t stand against God’s holy and redeemed church.
Hell is not on the offense. Those seeking to reshape our children seem offensive. It seems as though they are putting out ideas that more and more people are buying. It seems that Christians are killed after being asked about their faith in our country, and media coverage barely mentions that. Much of our media is designed to make Christians look less intelligent and behind the times. In these moments, I hold to what Jesus told Peter, “The gates of hell can’t stand against the church.” We are the offensive force. This force is not one of aggression and anger. It is a love that is sacrificial. It is one of grace, mercy and forgiveness. It bears the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
It is time for the Christians to love more, live better, give more and touch this lost and broken world because the church is an unstoppable force, even in this generation. Allow me to emphasize, Especially in this generation! God will complete His purposes with our without us. What an awesome promise. When the pressure is off, there is nothing to lose. God won!! We win!!
We know from Deuteronomy 5 and 6 that we have a great responsibility to pass this faith on to our children. We are not just to pass down rules and laws; we are to pass down how Jesus Christ has molded and shaped our very lives. We are to pass down our testimonies. When I say testimonies, I don’t just mean the story about meeting Jesus personally, I mean where He is taking us now. When I think about a strong believer who is concerned about this next generation, I think about someone who lives and breathes Jesus every single day of their life. They desire above all else to follow after Christ and what Christ wants for their lives on a daily basis.
Since God wins, let’s make sure He wins with us fighting on His side. Let’s allow our children to see our witness and understand what is at stake at a very early age.
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Reblogged this on The Isaiah 53:5 Project.
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Ark,
Too much to reply to decide what you want to talk about.
Good to hear from you though.
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Why too much to reply?
Tackle the very first sentence if you find the entire post too intimidating.
We can work through it together, how’s that?
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As always accusations without facts. Come back when you want to play for real.
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When it come to religion unless I state up front I am writing humour I ALWAYS play for real, and generally do not make a statement I cannot back up with qualified expert scholarship.
So, what about the sentence do you consider has no veracity?
Please be specific.
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Perhaps the second sentence would be easier for you? At least this does not call into question any personal motivation.
I am interested how a biblical scholar and write such as yourself answer this charge as honestly and openly as possible.
Feel free to go to town on my arrogance and ignorance if you consider I deserve it.
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While you are considering this is always worth remembering …
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There is little point in posting on James’ blog as comments are selectively held in moderation so I will answer here for you:
You appear to be struggling with ”too many points”
You raised the issue that non-believers wished to undermine (destroy) the faith of christian children.
I made mention that the Four gospels are rank fiction so how can educating children in the truth be considered undermining?
I am offering you the opportunity to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that the gospels are truth as this is what the basis of your faith an that of what you wish to teach children hinges on.
I can always repost this on James’ blog later – or you can,if you have licence to do so?
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who is killing christians?
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You do not have to look very far to find people who are killing Christians for their testimony of walking with Jesus Christ.
I am not going to converse about individual instances just because there is enough going on that is plain to see.
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I sure haven’t heard of this.
The cases I have heard are ISIS but they don’t discriminate or for that matter the Al Shabaab. But these two groups are killing in the name of the same god you worship. Who else is targeting Christians. I seem to not know of this
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I don’t think Chap is aware Muslims worship the same god as he does, the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Yhwh.
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In that case, it is only fair that we remind him. Don’t you agree?
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Chap, the people killing Christians in the Middle East are Yahwehists, like you.
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I think Christians are a funny lot.
So when Chap reads Deut, he needs context but when it comes to NT it is everything goes. What twisted logic is this
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“We know from Deuteronomy 5 and 6 that we have a great responsibility to pass this faith on to our children.”
We also know from Deuteronomy (17:12) to Kill people who don’t listen to priests: “Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
Do you teach your children this commandment, this directive, or are you selective in what you promote?
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I teach my child the bible in context. I teach a thorough explanation of the text in context. The text expains in Deuteronomy that these nations were unrighteous and that God’s reasoning. Israel wasn’t righteous they were stubborn and stiff necked people, but the nations they drove out were under judgment.
Truth sets people free, so the short answer to your question is not to shelter children, but raise them up in he way they should go by teaching them God commandments but like in Deuteronomy 5 and 6 pass on my daily testimony with a God who never leaves me nor forsakes me.
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Who’s talking about “nations”?
Deuteronomy 17:12 addresses individuals who should be put to death. So, do you teach your children that they, if they disobey a priest, should be put to death?
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Anyone reading what I wrote knows what I meant. You are twisting words. God’s word has to be read in context. The text doesn’t teach that a NT Gentile believer is to function in that way. The text is talking about nations, read it.
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Chaplapreneur, the text says “Anyone arrogant enough… must be put to death”
“Anyone,” not any nation.
So, the question remains: Do you teach your children that they should kill people who don’t listen to priests?
And no, I’m sorry, but Christians are bound to obey the OT laws. Jesus did not free you from these commandments. Please see Applied Faith, “Can Christians Carry Concealed Weapons?” to see your error
http://appliedfaith.org/2015/10/06/can-christians-carry-concealed-weapons/
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John,
The answer is still no. You are in error on how you interpret but it is not your fault. You were either exposed to a fundamental hermeneutic or you think that is how I read it. I do not.
I seek the original author, original text and original audience.
The text I was referring to was Deuteronomy 9:4-5.
This was to people who were an nation with a special purpose during a special time, the judgment of the other nations is part of that context.
Your approach is very elementary and one dimensional. To have an academic discussion about ancient texts, context is key.
We will have to agree to disagree on this point.
Check out my post” what a great day to follow Jesus.” To see more about context.
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Chaplapreneur
I’m not the one interpreting the validity of OT laws on Christians, David, a theologian who writes at Applied Faith, is. If you have a problem with his Christian theology, then do please take it up with him. I believe he argues the case very convincingly, whereas you have offered nothing of merit or substance to reject that conclusion.
And yes, you were referring to Deuteronomy 9:4-5. If you think Deuteronomy 9 worthy of attention then you should equally consider Deuteronomy 17 worthy of attention and respect. Deuteronomy 17 is talking about people. Deuteronomy 17 says people who do not listen to priests should be put to death.
So, the question remains: Do you teach your children that they should kill people who don’t listen to priests?
Alternatively, if you wish to argue (without evidence) that Deuteronomy 17 is, in fact, talking about entire “nations,” and not the individuals who make up a nation, then the question is still valid:
Do you teach your children that they should kill nations who don’t listen to priests?
Yes, or No?
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And just to make this point more clearer, please read the text: 12 Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the Lord your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.
Are you truly trying to suggest the author is saying a separate “nation” is inside Israel?
So, do you teach your children that they should kill people who don’t listen to priests?
Yes, or No?
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No I do not teach them that because the situation is layered with context. Israel moving into the promised land is not my child living today in 2015.
I already answered. You didn’t like my answer. I see no reason for further discussion.
Words divorced from their context are just words. The validity of the word of God is built upon context.
Thanks for sharing.
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You’re appeal to “context” is absurd, but I can certainly appreciate why you have to invent such absurdities.
OK, so you’re highly selective as to which parts of the bible you promote. That’s all you had to say.
Take care.
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So if these mandates in Deuteronomy were directed specifically to the nation and not to all people for all time, then perhaps for the sake of consistency, you should say that you have no responsibility to pass this on to your children. After all, Deuteronomy 5 and 6 were written only for the nation of Israel.
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Have you had a chance to consider the fictitious nature of the Gospels yet, by the way?
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With this in mind – context – would you like to explain the Isaiah prophecy where is supposedly pertains to the virgin birth of the character Jesus of Nazareth?
And I am not specifically referring to the difference between the words Almah and Parthenos but more the nature of the prophecy as given to King Ahaz.
Thanks
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I know where you are going. There is a difference between immediate and future fulfillment. God can have a young woman give birth to a king in one generation and point to another young woman who happens to be a virgin which is similar wording to the word 700 years before as a sign and a final fulfullment if he he wants to.
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This is the duel prophecy claim you refer to, yes?
Dreamed up when apologists were first confronted with the reality that the writer of Matthew had simply lifted the prophecy and mangled it for his own use to claim fulfillment of prophecy when in fact, it actually referred to Hezekiah.
Nowhere i the text does it even imply this is for a future birth. Nowhere.
You are a theologian, why are you not aware of this?
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I am aware but like I said I am comfortable with his use of it there are several things inscripture that have immediate and future fulfillment
God is not my lab rat. He doesn’t owe it to us to spell it out so clearly but it’s clear enough that those who truly seek find.
Thanks for sharing Ark.
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The text has been thoroughly refuted by at least one noted theologian, Raymond Brown, who specifically states the Catholic position is not to take this as a literal reading. As they were the original compilers of the bible am inclined to accept their position on the matter.
Furthermore, it does not feature in Mark, the first gospel, John does not touch it with a barge pole, and one would think as the last gospel he woud have used such a claim especially as John is more theological/doctrinal than the other gospels, and finally, Paul is emphatic in his assertion that Jesus was born of the flesh from the seed of David.
May I ask why you feel you have the right to usurp Pauline doctrine?
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There are two linages in the gospel one is Joseph’s and one is Mary’s. Some liateners needed one, some the other. Joseph head of house, Mary only actual parent.
No one is usurping Pauline doctrine. Nice try. As for john he can include what he wants. Very weak ark. I am out of time for now. Have a good day.
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Your knowledge of Jewish law is terrible. I’ll let a rabbi explain, link below:
“He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father’s side, being Jewish, from the mother’s side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David.
Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources:
1. The genealogy is that of Mary – This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father’s side, Mary’s genealogy is irrelevant.
2. He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David.
3. It doesn’t matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David – If it doesn’t matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!”
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm#Q1.B1
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See answer to ark
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See the rabbi’s answer to you, and to every Christian… I think he knows a lot more about what is, and what’s not, Jewish law.
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Not usurping Pauline doctrine, Chapla? Then you are obviously misunderstanding the text or perhaps the context.
Let me refresh your memory”
The Pauline position is unequivocal.
The two lineages story is I’m afraid, also another hand wave as this does not reflect Jewish law.
Being Jewish is nothing to do with race or genetics.
Jewish law determines who is a Jew, and Jewish law is quite clear.
Furthermore, modern expert biblical scholarship generally considers the genealogies fabrication.
So,once more, why are you, as a theologian, unaware of this or disputing it. On what factual grounds?
And why as a theologian do you dismiss someone such as Raymond Brown?
I am trying to remain objective and civil here, but it is beginning to seem as if you being obtuse on purpose
So back to the passage in Isaiah and the mythological virgin birth:
The “prophet” Isaiah is offering reassurance to King Ahaz that in return for his fidelity, Yahweh will ‘’bring low’’ (the northern kingdom, Israel) and Damascus (Syria ).
And the child he is referring to is Hezekiah. It’s right there. In the bible!
There is no ambiguity and no dual prophecy.
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If you say so, the truth is there was a promise and it was fulfilled. It was fulfilled and documented very well through the mother and the step father.
If there was a problem with linage we would know about it since in the east linage is everything when it comes to culture and religion.
For the practical family purpose Jesus was Joseph’s son. For actual purposes He was God’s son. Adoption and process of it don’t apply to a virgin birth, what you are saying is a stretch.
People would not have made him go through the adoption process. You must admit it was a special case.
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It isn’t if ”I say so”, this is what expert qualified biblical scholars say.
It is simply a plot device.
I already explained this.
The prophecy does not refer to Jesus at all . This was simply the writer inserting his mangled version of what Yahweh transmitted via Isaiah.
Something you have conveniently ignored.
To doggedly cling to this mythological doctrine betrays willful ignorance as you are certainly intelligent enough not to suffer outright indoctrination.
Besides, the church has already acknowledged the truth behind this piece of fiction. Would you like to read Brown’s actual words?
If so, let me know.
Furthermore Paul displays no knowledge of any virgin birth and emphatically denies this.
And his writings as you know ( I hope?) precede all the gospels.
A point you seem to have skipped over, I notice?
Were you simply unaware of this verse?
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Brown is not the church. Not all theologians agree and I am okay with you not agreeing with me. The question I really want to know is why does it bother you if I don’t agree with you.
The fact is there are many instances in scripture that are immediate and final fulfillment. Some of how the aposltes used Old Testament quotes is puzzling. I see the concern. But your conclusion is not as cut and dry as you think.
It is the work of a limited mind to quote one guy and call him the church. If your conclusion was so cut and dry it would have changed how the entire church reads and interprets scripture. However it is not. In fact to the trained eye it is easy to see that immediate and final fulfillment creates an unexpected twist in the narrative and brings things in a direction the powers that be didn’t expect.
Your strong statements and bully tactics don’t make something more true or even believable.
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Raymond Brown was speaking under authority. I did offer to show you the text. Obviously you feel it unnecessary.
That you disagree? Not a bit. That you preach this nonsense as truth, especially to kids, and other potentially vulnerable, uninformed people & tacitly condemn those to eternal torture in Hell ( another church construct by the way) who refuse to acknowledge; Quite a bit.
The entire secular field of archaeology acknowledges that Moses is a fictional character so do the majority of Jewish scholars and Rabbis.
Yet in the of overwhelming evidence you still think he was a real historical figure.
How much credence should I give your fundamental point of view over the thoroughly schooled and scientific alternative?
Why bully tactics?
You are the one who claims atheist are trying to destroy your children’s faith, meanwhile I am presenting sound evidence and you are merely
dismissing it and pushing fiction.
And you STILL did not respond to the fact that Paul is emphatic that Jesus birth was perfectly natural.
Did you not see his words from the bible?
I can give you the chapter and verse if you like?
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Ark back to the same bullying tactics. Strong words don’t make it true. Big accusations don’t make them true. Your Moses story we have been through all this. Your splitting hairs over Paul and law.
My question is why do u care? Why do u come looking for me with unlimited time to argue? Why do I strike a cord with you? I accept u don’t argee with me, but u accuse cheistians of being like how u act. You try every bullying tactic because it seems u can’t sleep knowing I think the way I do? Yet u don’t bother me. Why is that?
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There is no ”splitting hairs” concerning Paul and the Law. He said what he said. It is in the bible. You are now displaying crass willful ignorance to continue to dismiss his ”god inspired” (breathed if you prefer) words.
That is disingenuous.
You are called to make answer according to Peter.
I have explained I care little for what you personally believe. This is your right.
You do not extend the same rights to others , especially children, hence you writing this piece.
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I gave u an answer. You didn’t like it. Abraham was told all nations will be blessed through his seed. Mary’s linage counts because the promise precedes Jewish law.
Gospel writers used both Mary and Joseph linage for the audience. It was fulfilled gods
Yes u are splitting hairs
As for Peter the rest of the sentence is for the hope that is in you. Facts are important but testimony in this verse was primary. It was written in the context of persecution read it closely.
You are talking in circles again. Unless u have new material this is where I leave u. It does seem u have an internal need to talk to me though
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The answer you gave is fallacious.
I am sure the Jews are quite famiuliar with their laws not to have t rely upon a Christian fundamentalist for interpretation.
The anonymous writer of Matthew who included it lifted the Isaiah prophecy and used it for his own dishonest ends to show hs messiah had lineage bact to David.
I have alreadt eaplained this is nonsene simp,y because the prophecy was given to King Ahaz concerning his fidelity to Yahweh who promised to bring his enemies low.
Did you miss this? It’s in the bible.
Perhaps you would like to finally address the quote from Paul regarding the perfectly natural birth birth of Jesus?
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The promise of Abraham predates the law that is the answer. We are settling indifferent places on this one. I am okay with that? Are u? You never answered me, why am I so important to u? It is flattering but really ark?
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I have answered. You are not important to me whatsoever.
I do not know you from a bar of soap.
You wrote on an open forum, I read, I commented.
This is the second or third time I have explained this.
I realise we are from different parts of the world, but surely my written English is not that difficult to decipher? What part/s are you struggling to comprehend? Perhaps I can change the reading level?
Abraham is part of the Pentateuch which is considered historical fiction by all expert ( non fundamental) biblical scholars and archaeologists.
What relevance has this to Isaiah and Matthew’s fallacious gospel entry?
Any thoughts on Paul’s emphatic statement that Jesus was conceived and born of normal sexual intercourse?
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I answered already and am speaking English
All scholars is a typical over the top statement with no backing. I am not new at this and see no point in conversing when neglect 100s of credible people u are excluding. That is a bully rabit trail.
It has been fun, catch u next time.
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All scholars? I don’t think this is something said.
I have offered backing a couple of times but you have not shown the slightest inclination that you are in the least bit interested.
Simply tell me what you would like to see in this regard and I will gladly provide the ‘backing’ and links.
As has been pointed out – by at least one other n this thread – the bullying is all from your end. You are the one(s) who regularly display Persecution Complexes and get upset about atheist and non believers undermining or trying to destroy your faith.
You and I are adults.
Surely you are schooled enough in your religion to respond in a mature honest fashion?
If you are unable to answer effectively and honestly then what on earthem> are you doing preaching to kids?
Not allowing children free reign to decide for themselves regarding religion and coupling this inculcation with threats of eternal damnation is bullying of the worst kind, heinous in fact, especially coming from a parent or guardian.
My calling you out because of your smoke-screening, hand-waving and blatant obfuscation is not bullying. Good heavens!
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Wow that is some manipulative junk you are threading right now. The gospel doesn’t threaten kids with hell. The gospel reconnects us to God away from the tragic path we are already on. Hell is not a topic to be used to scare kids I agree
I am out of time for today. Catch u later
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I didn’t say the gospel threatens kids with hell.
You just did.
Jesus didn’t either.
It is church doctrine.
Surely as a theologian you are aware of this?
The Christian Hell does not feature in Judaism and Jesus was a Jew. He did not teach what your religion teaches.
I really would like a response to the question regarding Paul and Jesus; birth.
I have asked numerous times and you seem to be avoiding it like the proverbial plague.
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I answered in the steam check your notes.
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Not that I am aware of. All you mentioned was a backhanded reply about splitting hairs and the law.
Did miss it?
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Would it be okay if you preached your beliefs to a child who told you that he or she didn’t believe in God? Assume that parental consent is not an issue.
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Deuteronomy 5 and 6 asks that we pass on the testimonies and the statutes.
The problem is today we are concerned with only the laws. In Deuteronomy 6 Moses passes on to the people that their will come a day when the sons and daughters will ask about the laws and testimonies. We are responsible to tell our God story. Just like they were to obey because God met with them in the mountain, so is our story. if Jesus has changed my life I need to pass that on to my child. I obey the rules because He showed up in my life.
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I apologize for not being more specific in my question. I’m not asking about your stance on Deuteronomy here. Please allow me to rephrase my question:
Would it be okay if you preached your belief to a child who told you that he or she did not believe in God, and that child was not your own?
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Yes
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Thank you!
Okay, so let’s suppose the shoe were on the other foot. Would it be okay for an atheist to talk to someone else’s child about not believing in any deities if that child says he or she believes in Jesus? For simplicity’s sake, assume that there isn’t an issue of parental consent.
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It is a good question. The first issue it was open because no parental barrier. People have a responsibility to pass on what we know. If u think u are helping that kid then I can’t judge your motives that is God’s job. I however hold to my post of one month ago and don’t believe athiest are being honest whether with self or whatever but know there is more to life than this.
So God will judge us our motives. I am glad it is not something I am responsible for sorting out.
Sort answer we are responsible for passing on what we know for sure and helping the next generation navigate life through hard questions
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Please forgive me for my confusion, but is that a yes or a no to the question?
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“Chap” –
Your statement, ” Agnostics, atheists and the distracted want to destroy the faith of our children. They want to rebuild society based on seemingly new ideas”, I disagree with.
It certainly was not true with my own children; children who were brought up in a family where church attendance was mandatory, in fact something their parents felt was important in their upbringing. Our own children did not have their faith destroyed by any outside force – indeed, the ‘conspiracy’ you allude to is an imaginary one. No, their faith was deconstructed by their own sensible, practical reasoning. Their own rational, intelligent inquiry led them to reject what they had been exposed to as children. One by one, all four (university/college educated, well-traveled, and very discerning individuals) came to the conclusion that age-old tales of superstition and religious lore have no bearing on their day-to-day lives, and they are bringing up their own children devoid of such tales.
I also take issue with your statement that, “(m)uch of our media is designed to make Christians look less intelligent and behind the times.” I don’t think the media has to do anything – many Christians are doing a great job of that on their own. All one has to do is take a look on a plethora of blog posts.
In fact, someone once said, “The demise of religion can be credited to one source – the internet”. Discerning readers persist.
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Carmen,
Thank you for the response. What you are wtiting about is a serious thing. I became a believer while in college. I see what you see I regards to many Christians making Christians look bad.
That is why I wrote a book handling every chapter of the New Testament in context. I come from a background where many of the people I know are not believers and think they are smarter than that. The truth is they are smarter than the Christianity they were shown.
I dig deep knowing that truth sets us all free just like it did me. I dig deep knowing that Jesus who grabbed a hold of me will do the same for people who walk through the New Testament with me in my book.
Just like all people who share your views do not represent you the same is true for believers.
Rational thought led me to understand life can’t be an accident. Rational thought told me there is something else. When I looked he found me and I am never letting go. No Athiest or agnostic has ever given a good argument that crosses out my experience.
In fact wht I have learned over and over is that those who oppose the message do not understand how to interpret scripture themeves and prive it by misquoting and misusing context over and over. Thank you for reading.
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I think if you peruse some blogs, you’ll find that your assertion, “those who oppose the message do not understand how to interpret scripture themeves and prive it by misquoting and misusing context over and over”, is used over and over. It SOUNDS like a very wise and benevolent retort to the believer but is – to the non-believer – an avoidance statement which holds no strength. Try again. It won’t silence people who know they have something important to add to the conversation. In fact, Ark’s assertions remind me of listening to Christopher Hitchens’ videos when I was first ‘deconverting’ – the overriding, good SENSE of what he has said stays with a person. I found that I just couldn’t hand wave away their logic.
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If someone quotes scripture without knowledge of the context they are not using it correctly. That is true when talking about any book, movie, video, etc. if someone said something to someone 2000 years ago much of the meaning is lost without understanding the ones in that conversation. That is common sense about any narrative current or in the past. I don’t know how someone can just hand wave that.
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Chap –
There’s something tragically ironic about you levelling a ‘bullying’ charge against Arkenetan, when your picture, above, is of an innocent child gazing at a bullied, bloody, corpse whimpering, “I love you” . . . can you not see your own blindness??
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I didn’t charge ark. He posted my quote on his blog and then came looking for me on mine. Anyone reading this stream will see where the agression is coming from not me. I have only answered comments. I didn’t seek to comment on him one time. You are misguided. Thank u for your love though, and I love that picture.
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I find myself grieving for that child.
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Why would you grieve for the one who is free?
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“Love me OR ELSE” is not a promise of freedom. And when it’s used against children it’s emotional abuse. You might want to think on that.
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That is not a message I am familiar with
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It’s the message in your blog post, Chap. You know, the one mentioning ‘the gates of Hell’. . ” Let’s allow our children to see our witness and understand what is at stake at a very early age.” You don’t think that suggests, “Love me OR ELSE”??
Like I said, emotional manipulation, which you regularly (it’s certainly suggested by the post) practise on innocent, trusting children. I, like Ark, think you ought to be ashamed.
As I said, think on these things.
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I think this illustrates what you’re saying, Carmen
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Gates of hell is a scripture quote illustrating god wins and there is a real battle at stake those of us who know Jesus and are burdened for our family are encouraged by that verse. This was actually a post written to believers primarily.
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Really?
You make a flagrant charge against atheism and atheists in an open forum – on two blogs, in fact – and you expect an atheist, or any non-Christian that might read it to remain silent?
Surely you jest, sir?
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I wrote my thoughts, theology and beliefs down. I put my message out there. I didn’t come looking for you. Yet there is something that irritates u enough to look for me. Huh?
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Again, you post on an open forum on two blogs. I follow James’ blog.
This is one of the aims of blogging and proselytizing is part and parcel of your faith, yes?
As the piece wasn’t in braille, who exactly were you directing your own ”bullying” post toward?
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Your the bully let’s be clear. You came looking for me and find me so irresistible that you can’t stop pursuing the conversation. Why do I bother you? Answer the question.
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Nope I already explained. I follow James’ blog.
You wrote, I read, I commented. Which is what that little box at the bottom of a blog post is for.
Carmen has already mentioned what she feels concerning bullying. It is part and parcel of fundamentalism.
”Love me or else”
You do not bother me, Chapla?
Not in the least.Of that you have my word.
I know you from a bar of soap.
I am merely responding to a fallacious piece of writing.
I would hope you had the integrity to engage honestly without all this duck and diving and calling me a bully.
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Carmen said I was a bully and that is when I began to highlight your bullying style of over emphasizing a theolgian or over stating how many Christians don’t beelive a section of scripture those are bullying tactics
Thanks for the dialogue catch u next time.
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No, not bullying. Merely directing your attention to the stubborn way you seem to refuse to acknowledge what your expert peers have stated in writing.
The real bullying can be found in your post.
As Carmen has pointed out from her reading stories of religious deconverts. There are quite a number right here on WordPress. Would you like a couple of links?
One or two of the stories are quite harrowing, especially the way these people were treated, even by their family and friends.
Children should not be subject to threats of torture. That is more than bullying. That is abuse and is shameful and disgusting. yet you tacitly promote this. Why is that?
Certainly, Christian Hell is not something the character Jesus of Nazareth taught.
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You are making a lot of assumptions about me based on other Christians. I do believe the Bible teaches a literal hell. That belief doesn’t make me a bully. As for everything else you said in this remark about me bullying none of it applies to me. I pass my faith on to the next generation. A Jesus who set me free and has done the same for millions. As for carmens experience with other Christians we can do this with any group. There is always someone acting different than they should.
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That you believe in a literal hell certainly suggests you are of a more conservative bent regarding you theology and illustrates that you are perhaps ill-informed over the etymology and history. Maybe you should consider doing some in-depth research?
Maybe what you were taught was different in times past?
If you are not this way inclined towards your religion then please correct me and I will apologise immediately.
You should rather let them choose if they wish to accept your faith.
I wouldn’t. And you wouldn’t accept a Hindu’s, Muslim’s or a Jew’s.
So why do you not afford the same rights to a child that comes within your sphere of influence?
I respected the rights of my kids – why don’t you
Still no thoughts on Paul’s emphatic statement regarding the birth of Jesus through normal procreation?
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So you are telling me u don’t influence your own kids at all. U completely free range it? I don’t buy it you preach as much as me. I would bet the house on it.
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Oops…well there goes your mortgage then.
My children actually went to a private Catholic school, a choice based on the quality of education and a long time prior to me understanding much about the religious shenanigans of fundamentalism.
My wife is /was/ a lapsed Catholic and the school came highly recommended.
And both my children were confirmed.
Yes, on the face this might seem hypocritical,but my view was , I didn’t believe in god ( even though I was brought up Anglican and not very biblically savvy at that point) so I didn’t feel it was my place to dictate my lack of religious belief onto my kids.
I reasoned they were smart enough to work things out for themselves.And as religion was not pumped at home it turned out to be the right decision.
These days my children have shunned all religious belief although they do consider themselves spiritual in a ”We are all part of the Universe” fashion.
This had very little to do with me I can assure you as my children were old enough to make their own decisions before I became even remotely interested in religion
I tried to influence my kids more in music, which I managed a little – bit of classical guitar – and football which I succeeded fullyindoctrinating both of them to support the team I grew up supporting.
So, who you going to donate your house to, Charla?
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Just an expression u knew that. Thanks for the dialogue
Talk to u another day
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Just an expression/ Really?
Shucks, and there I thought some homeless person was in the pound seats.
And Paul and his acknowledging that Mary and Joseph had sex and Mary fell pregnant then after nine months Jesus was born?
You not going to address this?
Is it too difficult or are you embarrassed?
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Also, Chap, just in case you think I am exaggerating my claims of emotional abuse of children, you might want to do some reading at the Homeschoolers Anonymous site. If you think for one moment that children don’t internalize the oppressive doctrine of their fundamentalist parents, read some of their accounts – they’ll enlighten you. The children on HA are now young adults – many have had extensive therapy to undo the damaging effects of their parents’ toxic beliefs.
THEN, you might want to reconsider the ‘reshaping’ of your own children.
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Am I a fundamentalist? No shrug one
Am I am homeschooler? No shrug two
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I’m afraid you totally missed the point of my suggestion to read Homeschoolers Anonymous. Or was that deliberate? The POINT is that many people who were brainwashed/indoctrinated when they were children are now adults and have recognized that they were taught to believe in a myth with no evidential foundation. Part of that myth includes the concept of Hell, which these now-grown adults have had a difficult time relinquishing; these terrifying images were ingrained in their minds so convincingly.
I’ve also remembered the exact wording of that quote above. “Internet – where religion goes to die”.
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Not deliberate and I have read more if that stuff than u might think.
My view is exposing them to truth putting the reliability of the gospels to the test will bear fruit
I do not shelter I am not afraid and I pass on truth
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Pardon me for pointing out the obvious here, Chap, but the ‘reliability of the Gospels’ is what Ark is trying to point out to you – there’s no such thing. Which is what people realize when they grow up and start researching; ergo, what happened to our four kids. (which, in turn, inspired their mother; their father never having been a believer)
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I also researched it as an adult found the opposite and converted. I even wrote a book dealing with the subject. This is where we agree to disagree and where I leave u. Thanks for sharing
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. ..ahhh. . the ‘agree to disagree’ response. For anyone perusing this thread, this statement translates to, “You obviously don’t agree with me, so I’ll cease to engage you” 🙂
However, since the main thrust of your blog post was that “atheists . . . want to destroy the faith of our children” I shall remind you, once again, that it suggests something deliberate on the part of non-believers (and also rings of the ‘persecution’ threat). Once again, I submit that nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, if you would read some of the blogs of people who’ve deconverted, you’d find that all of them suggest that it was intellectual reasoning that ‘won the day’. Inquiring minds are realizing, at greater frequency, that they’ve been presented with a mythical tale, conjured up by Bronze/Iron Age men (who knew no science) in an attempt to explain their beginnings. The same children you worry about are learning more and more about science and realizing that many answers are not only available but verifiable. Surely facts should be considered over conjecture.
You seem to be of the opinion that the Bible holds all the answers (even when others point out glaring problems) It doesn’t. In fact if you hold the line that the Bible proves the existence of God, then you must also agree that comic books prove the existence of Superwoman.
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Oh, that you had the integrity to offer children the same choice.
But , your hypocrisy is looked after by the bible is it not?
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